tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post6256125659231971900..comments2023-11-05T07:44:07.654-05:00Comments on GeniusboyFiremelon: Warren Ellis vs. Geoff Johns HITS THE SPLASH PAGE (Part 2 of 2!)Timothy Callahanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-78300898401049724152009-10-31T02:23:32.687-04:002009-10-31T02:23:32.687-04:00I think the length and breadth of Ellis' caree...I think the length and breadth of Ellis' career is going to see him trump Johns in any sort of 'Top 10' list, as much as I enjoy Johns' work. Between the two, I'm probably more likely to buy something with Johns' name attached to it, but c'mon, they're both great.<br /><br />But forget Johns v Ellis - does anyone else think Johns might have taken a bite out of a bigger fish in this week's GL? Atrocitus' exchange with the four Inversions sounds a lot like a response to Moore's recent interview trashing Johns for being inspired by his '80s GLC stories.Rohan Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-81445515407226757242009-10-26T18:14:06.387-04:002009-10-26T18:14:06.387-04:00Johns is Dune, not Star Wars. I mean, Legion of Th...Johns is Dune, not Star Wars. I mean, Legion of Three Worlds has some of the most nonsensical theory ever put on comic book. Just awfully written stuff, with very unengaging characterization. The premises were fine (as it usually is in his stories), but execution is always miss for me. Except for Son of Superman and Adventure Comics, which seemed to have a more thought-out plan.<br />Warren is more like Philip K. Dick. Strong premises, moral issues, lots of well-researched theory and great dialoguing.Ricardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13999757626100045058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-36483654848279072882009-10-26T18:07:45.658-04:002009-10-26T18:07:45.658-04:00Re: optimism
Spider Jerusalem is as skeptical, cy...Re: optimism<br /><br />Spider Jerusalem is as skeptical, cynical a character as comics has to offer, but he believes in the possibility of change. Nobody who writes exclusively within the DC milieu can really talk about change, because those comics are inevitably about preserving the status quo, and "winning" means returning things to the way they were before.<br /><br />The line that I always remember first when I think about Transmet—from, I think, one of the short Christmas stories—is "The future is necessarily a good thing."<br /><br />Spider finds his world endlessly disappointing, but he hasn't given up on changing it. That's why he takes an interest in the presidential election and uses his energy to influence the outcome. It's important that the election comes in the first half of the book. If it were the climax, that would be it: "nothing ever changes." But in a way, it's the setup. Spider is devastated by how wrong everything goes, but eventually he gets back into it, working to expose the Smiler and remind people it doesn't have to be like this.<br /><br />It's a feat of optimism you don't see many places in comics, and basically nowhere in superhero comics. And one can quite easily imagine a lot of other Ellis characters saying, "The future is necessarily a good thing."<br /><br />I'm also a sucker for the Engineer taking a moment in The Authority to become the first woman to walk on the moon, and Ellis and Hitch giving a page to that moment.Brendanhttp://wrightopinion.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-80988912056466124682009-10-23T20:46:51.589-04:002009-10-23T20:46:51.589-04:00Rebis is right. About everything.Rebis is right. About everything.Timothy Callahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-80662464436261219592009-10-23T17:08:30.423-04:002009-10-23T17:08:30.423-04:00I'll admit, I haven't read enough Ellis to...I'll admit, I haven't read enough Ellis to comment on him with any personal authority (although I did enjoy all of the "Planetary" and most of the "Authority" that I did read, in trade, a couple years back). But I will say a few words in defense of Geoff Johns. Yes, some of his stuff was a sloppy mess: "Infinite Crisis," I'm looking at you — though who can say there wasn't plenty of corporate interference? — and I don't know who in their right mind, other than die-hard Legion fans, could have thoroughly enjoyed "Legion of Three Worlds" ... but his run on "Flash" (the Wally West Flash)? Great stuff there. And full of characterization! Wally has a distinct personality, as do most of the Rogues.<br /><br />Meanwhile, his "GL" run will be well-remembered and hailed for a long time. I don't see it mired in DC continuity at all — if you know the older elements of "GL" mythos, like Sinestro's and Carol's back stories, or Moore's "Tygers," well then, all the better. Nonetheless, Johns is telling his current readers everything we need to know as he goes along. And he's creating entire new swaths of Lantern Lore, which are being stitched, near-seamlessly, into the existing tapestry. It's a pretty thrilling feat spooling out before us.Rebisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-62895249336338477822009-10-22T22:08:16.334-04:002009-10-22T22:08:16.334-04:00Lebowski is outside the Star Wars/Blade Runner spe...Lebowski is outside the Star Wars/Blade Runner spectrum. It's the wild card!Timothy Callahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-61864365437402098072009-10-22T11:42:23.934-04:002009-10-22T11:42:23.934-04:00I don't see how Lebowski really compares, but ...I don't see how Lebowski really compares, but yeah, I'm a fan. Coens' best!Bill Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14811238618910477219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-62304471837710090802009-10-21T12:51:26.074-04:002009-10-21T12:51:26.074-04:00No Star Wars or Blade Runner? I've never heard...No Star Wars or Blade Runner? I've never heard of such a person.<br /><br />Bill Reed, you are most certainly a robot from the future determined to wreak havoc on life as we know it.<br /><br />Maybe you're a Big Lebowski person, then?Timothy Callahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-62966389639782269072009-10-21T12:49:39.835-04:002009-10-21T12:49:39.835-04:00I don't like Star Wars or Blade Runner.
Anywa...I don't like Star Wars or Blade Runner.<br /><br />Anyway, Crooked Little Vein is the most pants-shittingly funny book I've read since, I dunno, Douglas Adams was in his prime.Bill Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14811238618910477219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-56252067823613747312009-10-21T10:18:41.218-04:002009-10-21T10:18:41.218-04:00I see Johns as Star Wars and Ellis as Blade Runner...I see Johns as Star Wars and Ellis as Blade Runner.Timothy Callahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-31597432317179850572009-10-21T09:55:41.345-04:002009-10-21T09:55:41.345-04:00Remember in Pulp Fiction where the fundamental cat...Remember in Pulp Fiction where the fundamental categories of classification were Elvis people or Beatles people?<br /><br />This feels like that: Ellis people or Johns people, Wolverine or Superman, the angel or the insect.<br /><br />Personally, I like to consider myself enlightened enough that I can appreciate both on some level and won't judge these writers on their public personas and respective views on super-heroes: Ellis's famous commentary in the form such terminology as "Cat Piss Man" or "spandex-clad" vs. Johns's apparent shmaltz for corporate intellectual property.<br /><br />Johns is a guilty pleasure for me. The hopefulness and bright colors and high adventure and melodrama...I'd never call myself a Johns fan for fear of being excluded from the cool kids club but I always find myself enjoying his work in spite of myself. I'm deeply, deeply cynical of anything with a Marvel or DC label on it. I'm long since past any kind've sentimental devotion to these characters but that's a lamentable state. I'm pleased when someone can warm my cold, dead heart and make me believe. Because I want to believe.<br /><br />Ellis on the other hand is someone's work I openly speak about. This gives me cred. Trenchcoats and sunglasses at night. Grim looks and over-serious intellectual ephemera. Honestly, I find his Bad Signal and missives vastly more entertaining and useful than his work though. I like having the ideas distilled so I don't have to slog through the fiction. This is mostly because I secretly find Ellis's work predictable and dull. <br /><br />Y'know, like most things it's not a perfect division. Sometimes Ellis finds a vein of life that you can tell he is being sincere. That bastard with a heart of gold, sure. And Johns tries to engage the unholy power of awesome sometimes it feels so utterly commercial and skeevy lacking in any real heart. But y'know, that really works to Johns's favor because it seems to indicate he can do what Ellis can do and what Ellis can't (or won't). <br /><br />Because when it comes down to it, that's the big problem for me: Ellis may be a better writer but there are places he just won't go, places he finds just too ridiculous, places that he might consider unbecoming. And that's a limitation. Wolverine doesn't do this and Wolverine doesn't do that, y'know? But Superman? He's devoid of ego or at least he's trying.<br /><br />At least Johns is trying.<br /><br />But don't tell anybody I told you that.Iannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-72890847729479012072009-10-20T23:01:32.092-04:002009-10-20T23:01:32.092-04:00Ellis's prose is pretty good. Very straight-fo...Ellis's prose is pretty good. Very straight-forward, easy to read, minimalist. I read the book in a day and enjoyed it quite a bit.Chad Nevetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11785622045733202883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-28891867039167586852009-10-20T21:30:24.941-04:002009-10-20T21:30:24.941-04:00Ugh. Prose from comic book writers tends to be ter...Ugh. Prose from comic book writers tends to be terrible. I'll have to be sold a hell of a lot more than that to pick up Ellis's novel.<br /><br />I'm still trying to slog through John L. Byrne's "Fear Book." (Not really, I gave up after page 5 about 22 years ago.)Timothy Callahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078183191900311833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-36961755154401898562009-10-20T21:02:57.023-04:002009-10-20T21:02:57.023-04:00Tim, check out Ellis' "Crooked Little Vei...Tim, check out Ellis' "Crooked Little Vein," if you've not done so already. It proves your point... yet undermines it with a clever bit of plotting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-86833206872997155612009-10-19T23:55:16.575-04:002009-10-19T23:55:16.575-04:00I don't know that that's quite true. I thi...I don't know that that's quite true. I think there's sometimes an overemphasis placed on needing to understand every aspect of a character's background and have stories be neatly self contained, when the very thing that got a lot of people into comics in the first place was the sprawling interconnectedness of the universe.<br /><br />I read Infinite Crisis without having read Crisis on Infinite Earths, and I was pretty confused at times, but at the same time enjoyed just how over the top and insane the events were. I think people can enjoy the work without fully comprehending it. <br /><br />But, going in the other direction, I'd argue Teen Titans is fairly easy to follow on its own terms, and contains most of the information needed to follow the character beats in story. It's not his best work, but it's one that's pretty easy to follow without that much prior familiarity with the characters involved.<br /><br />That said, nothing in Johns's oeuvre is going to sell a new reader on comics in the way that Planetary or Transmet would.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04702965396185870813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-33377668034516218792009-10-19T21:43:31.181-04:002009-10-19T21:43:31.181-04:00I think the difference between Ellis' babble a...I think the difference between Ellis' babble about biology and physics and Johns' babble about the DCU is pretty much a perfect reflection of what makes Ellis better than Johns: anyone with a reasonable intellect/education can understand Ellis' digressions, while literally no-one on earth outside of the -- say fifty thousand? -- hardcore DC continuity geeks can understand Johns'. This is a real glaring flaw in Johns' writing, as often he bases major story beats on obscure continuity tidbits. Now, I realize Morrison could be accused of doing the same thing, but he always tells you everything you need to know about any given character, while Johns' writing seems directly aimed at those DC geeks, to the exclusion to anyone else. And I do mean ANYONE else -- I know a good bit about DC continuity through the ages, way more than anyone else I know or anyone I've been on staff with at the handful of comic shops I've worked at, and I still couldn't make heads or tails of things like Legion of Three Worlds or Green Lantern, though not for lack of trying. If I wanted to get a non-comics reader to see what I enjoyed about comics, I wouldn't think twice about handing them some Fell or Transmet, or maybe even Planetary. But what of the Johns oeuvre would possibly be comprehensible to your average college-graduate comics virgin? I honestly can't think of anything, though if someone wants to suggest something that would be nice -- maybe I could finally figure out what all the fuss over Johns is about.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14103358208072898119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-6063239617040209922009-10-19T21:06:19.371-04:002009-10-19T21:06:19.371-04:00I don't think you can lump Ellis' creator ...I don't think you can lump Ellis' creator owned work with his corporate stuff in this discussion. <br /><br />His whole Shtick as a creator is "closet optimist pretending to be a cynic, innit?"<br /><br />But he doesn't use that when he's working for Marvel - Ellis has flat-out said that alla dat's just hackwork to get his name out there and herd people over to his creator owned stuff -<br /><br />And even if it's GOOD stuff -<br /><br />And Nextwave was one of the three or four most formally/structurally inventive superhero books of the past 20 years -<br /><br />He's still approaching it as an element outside of his REAL work - And I think the cynical tone to Thunderbolts and Nextwave comes from that. It's dumbed-down Ellis for beginners, maybe. (Although, again, a lot of it is awfully good.)<br /><br />And I don't see Geoff Johns optimist, either. His stories end, the good guys win. Just like every superhero comic ever. Just like every horror movie ever. I'm not sure you can even DO optimism effectively without the possibility of a happy (or at least bittersweet) ending. <br /><br />Or if you can convey it in ongoing serial narrative you have to be a hell of a lot better writer than Geoff Johns.MarkAndrewhttp://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/author/markandrew/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-72589455038442060212009-10-19T17:44:30.147-04:002009-10-19T17:44:30.147-04:00I'm actually surprised that you don't cons...I'm actually surprised that you don't consider yourself emotional in your reactions to comics - I read a lot of personal, "gut" reaction in your criticisms/comments/reviews of things. Not this column, specifically, but in many other cases. Aren't you the guy who said "Awesome trumps everything" (or something to that effect)? Isn't that a pretty emotional reaction, to say "this is awesome, it makes me feel good, who cares about anything else?<br /><br />For the record, I'll take Ellis over Johns any day, though I've read and enjoyed a lot of stuff by Johns.Matt Jacobsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780688232878059439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-43489685560984753922009-10-19T17:41:15.283-04:002009-10-19T17:41:15.283-04:00I agree with Ricardo.
The real weakness with Geof...I agree with Ricardo.<br /><br />The real weakness with Geoff Johns is his characterization. I literally cannot tell his Barry Allen and Hal Jordan apart. They have exactly the same speech patterns.Dean H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17923782800713104454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-91350659576609715072009-10-19T16:18:57.536-04:002009-10-19T16:18:57.536-04:00Yes, Warren Ellis is a better and vastly more erud...Yes, Warren Ellis is a better and vastly more erudite writer than Johns.<br /><br />HOWEVER, it's absolutely LAUGHABLE that anyone would ever place Ellis above Grant Morrison.<br /><br />Grant Morrison's work is far more inspiring than Warren Ellis'. The Invisibles was a brilliant epic story. Flex Mentallo - the best deconstruction of superheroes EVER.<br /><br />Now this is where FireMellon's criticism of Warren Ellis' writing comes in. FireMellon's right, Ellis' stories' endings come off really boring and wholly unsatisfying. Planetary being the biggest example: There are so many loose ends and unfinished business that the whole story falls apart. How can you introduce a character like the Imaginary guy from Planet Fiction AND DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with him?? How can you introduce a character like Carlton Marvel For ONE DAMN PAGE and then never revisit what actually happened to him in the Dreamtime? <br /><br />Other works by Warren Ellis have similar problems: Ultimate Galactus was the biggest anti-climax I've read in a long time; Global Frequency was so disjointed I lost interest after issue four; No Hero had no real ending - it just stopped.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05360683270338424401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-29037805860120220752009-10-19T10:27:28.893-04:002009-10-19T10:27:28.893-04:00Yay, you guys are talking about stuff I understand...Yay, you guys are talking about stuff I understand, not that Wednesday Comics sillyness! Welcome back, seriously.Matt Jacobsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780688232878059439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-62707121502102354092009-10-19T01:57:48.115-04:002009-10-19T01:57:48.115-04:00Yeah, I pretty much agree with Chad at every turn,...Yeah, I pretty much agree with Chad at every turn, here. Frankly, the inherent assumption of this Splash Page-- that Ellis is the cynic and Johns is the optimist-- feels like a fallacy for me. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. <br /><br />Ellis looks grumpy on the surface, but he's really not. He's a humanist and an optimist, just like Kurt Vonnegut. (Oh God, I just had an idea for a thesis.) Whereas Johns looks brighter and cheerier, but, well, I just don't think his work bears that out. But since I don't go out of my way to read his comics, I can't really back up my argument.<br /><br />But it does end up that Ellis is simply a better writer. Especially with dialogue, which is a good two-fifth of the reason why I find Johns' comics to be so unreadable.Bill Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14811238618910477219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-66836139064749561432009-10-19T00:17:28.967-04:002009-10-19T00:17:28.967-04:00I love Ellis's writing about comics. I don'...I love Ellis's writing about comics. I don't know how much writing Johns has done about the craft, so I didn't bring it up -- but, yeah, if I had to choose between Ellis's body of fictional work and his writing about comics... it would be a tough decision. <i>Come in Alone</i> is essential reading.Chad Nevetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11785622045733202883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-64649581383092910212009-10-18T23:48:07.407-04:002009-10-18T23:48:07.407-04:00But, I will add that I think Planetary and The Aut...But, I will add that I think Planetary and The Authority are going to be read and respected more looking ahead than anything Johns has written, and have made more of an impact on the industry than anything Johns has done. Though, I'd argue that Ellis's writing about comics is more influential than any of the comics he's written.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04702965396185870813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22842788.post-30143654877878278752009-10-18T23:43:52.051-04:002009-10-18T23:43:52.051-04:00It's tough to compare the two because Johns do...It's tough to compare the two because Johns doesn't have any creator owned work to bring into the mix. But, even working within the DCU, I feel like he's got a wider variety of stories and character types he's used than Ellis has. After reading Transmet, Planetary and The Authority, I don't feel the need to read any new Ellis, since everything seems to riff off the same concepts from those books, where a cynical hero battles evil and we get to see a little piece of their heart underneath the hard surface. <br /><br />I haven't read as much of Johns' stuff, but my big issue is that it feels so insular to the superhero universe. I think there are some real emotional beats in the work, but I feel like he's just telling good stories in the DCU, not reinventing it and expanding it in the way that Morrison is. <br /><br />If I could read a new comic by either one, I'd go with Johns since I feel like Ellis is just hitting the same beats again and again. <br /><br />I feel like the best writers in the big two carve out their own little chunk of the universe, and going back and reading Johns' older work, I can see where so much of Infinite Crisis, 52 and even Final Crisis were coming from. It's cool to keep finding new pieces of this one big story. I just wish DC would make it easier to figure out what order all of Johns' stuff was written in and some idea of how to go through it in TPB and catch stuff that's concurrent.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04702965396185870813noreply@blogger.com